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JaredBanks
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:14 pm    Post subject: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD Reply with quote

Anyone have any advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD? I've found that the sooner a new user starts focusing on using ArchiCAD as ArchiCAD and not trying to use it like a former drafting program, the better. This is much easier done when the previous program the user knew was AutoCAD. I find there's more resistance with REVIT. "Well in REVIT if I did this it'd work. Why can't this program function exactly like that?" I'm hoping that I can point out some things that happen in the early stages of modeling to help highlight the joys of working in ArchiCAD v11. So far some of the things I've mentioned haven't left this user that impressed...

Thoughts? Teaching techniques you've used?

Thanks.

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Dwight
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD Reply with quote

Recite this:

"Quit whining and learn Archicad or find another job in these recessive times, even if Obama will fix things before Easter."

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JaredBanks
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD Reply with quote

Dwight wrote:
Recite this:

"Quit whining and learn Archicad or find another job in these recessive times, even if Obama will fix things before Easter."


Dwight! Always a fountain of wisdom. Very Happy Thanks for reminding me not to doubt my instincts. I never had trouble getting that message across with former Autocad users. I don't know much REVIT, so my internal monologue doesn't as readily see the flaws in the whining. Not that that is a good excuse.

Any other thoughts non-hostile?

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Ignacio
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD Reply with quote

Never been in that situation but I think the 'interactive tutorials' http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/training_guides/ are a great resource.

They can do them in private, at their own pace, and my understanding is that AC is that they will find that more user-friendly, responsive and productive than Revit.

Also the tutorials themselves, with the movies and the fairly cool buildings, are as pleasant an experience as a tutorial can get.

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Dwight
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD Reply with quote

When CAD first arrived and fellows were being turfed off drafting boards and given a 'typewriter' and a 'television,' I heard of entire offices being switched in a weekend the staff came into the office on Monday and it was "Sink or Swim."

With regard to your guy, tell him you'd love a report on REVIT. Done on his own time.

It really doesn't matter if he thinks REVIT is better or not, but that he should learn the firm's way of doing things and see if he still thinks that way after six months.... since implementation is everything.

My neighbor is a successful architect of large residences. He still drafts by hand and is not a geezer. He said the firm he left implemented CAD and their "cost per sheet of drawings" increased twofold. I had never seen architectural work costed like that so i was surprised, but yeah, different values lead to different solutions.

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JaredBanks
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD Reply with quote

I wonder if that neighbor's firm still has a cost per sheet that is double that of hand drawing? I think a similar thing definitely happens after the switch to BIM from 2D (and eventually we'll have some hand drafting to BIM switchers, so what is that like a quadrupling of costs, yikes!)
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Dwight
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD Reply with quote

Anyone here knows that "measuring the cost of drafting" per sheet is insane.

But it shows how hard it is to measure productivity in an architectural firm [and the quality of data on those sheets].

If i was still drafting based, I would be lamenting, instead, the loss of revenue from shadow casting studies that took a week of descriptive geometry to execute and now gets done automatically over coffee break.

The way i see it is you need smarter people to operate Archicad if productivity is to increase.

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JaredBanks
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD Reply with quote

Unfortunately I think the initial bottom line is over-stressed and can add pressure to the switch. Life-cycle analysis anyone? I think anyway it's measured once people are using ArchiCAD competently it's going to best 2D and hand drafting on all accounts. But there are those metrics that AC just flat loses at the beginning. And that goes back to both our original posts. If a new user judges ArchiCAD on how it imitates REVIT, then it's always going to lose. Kind of like arguing the merits of religion with someone who doesn't accept your position on the subject.

Do you really think a typical user needs to be smarter to have productivity increased in AC? Is this suggesting that for some (many), the switch to BIM just might not be worth it? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I've got to think about that. It's an interesting question and a ways off of my original post. And perhaps a little dangerous to discuss.

I worked at a firm once that constantly talked about hours per sheet.

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Richard Morrison
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD Reply with quote

JaredBanks wrote:

I worked at a firm once that constantly talked about hours per sheet.

This discussion depends on how your firm is billing. As Dwight alluded to, if your firm is billing "by the hour," then you want the slowest possible production system. If your firm is billing by a fixed fee, then you want the fastest. You might want to consider getting people to watch the video webcast on the Master Template system http://www.archicadtemplate.com/ .

While some things are a little slow for "sales" purposes, it is pretty good at getting people to see what's possible within ArchiCAD as far as quickly producing a set of construction docs. Maybe you should preview it first, though.

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Dwight
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on teaching REVIT users ArchiCAD Reply with quote

And you moved on. Proves smartness already.

My notion is that:

BIM in general needs smarter, more focused people because there are more balls to juggle. You need to be calm and methodical from the get-go when the knee jerk reaction is to "just make a sketch. [And work it out later]"

Another problem we have in architecture is a truncated delegation pyramid. The billing pyramid gets kneecapped when BIM comes along since guys who don't know anything make kaka when they model. So it is harder to direct juniors. In the old days, fellows could learn making door schedules and other simple things while watching the real guys work - what a guy could do on the boards was a lot clearer than now.

In "LightWorks in Archicad" i refer to "Mechanic's Mind" and "Artist's Mind" as opposing qualities conflicting in architecture. To be really productive in Archicad requires a handle on both the technics of a structure and its design implications. You need to firmly hold both handles and still be able to work the keyboard and mousie! Tell me THAT doesn't need extra talent, or limbs!!

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