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EcoBoger
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Solar Analysis is not accounted in Energy Simulation (AC17) Reply with quote

It appears that Energy simulation in AC17 INT does not take into account solar analysis that was calculated for any openings in a project.

Test: as soon as you add a window to a south wall (for testing purposes the only window in the project) the Energy simulation ads a "Solar Gain" to "Project Energy Balance" tab, but it does not seem to be taking into account "Solar Analysis" calculated for that window.

Theoretically, (or at least according to the promotional material being distributed), after one calculates "Solar Analysis" for that opening, the "Solar Gain" under "Project Energy Balance" should change if this south-facing window is shaded by model geometry. It does not happen. Even placing a solid wall (properly recognized by Energy Model Simulation) inches in front of the window to completely block the sunlight and recalculating Solar Analysis to properly reflect total lack of solar irradiation makes no difference for "Solar Gain".

To make it clear, "Solar Analysis" works fine. It is the "Solar Gain" under "Project Energy Balance" that does not seem account for "Solar Analysis".

I hope this gets fixed, as this is one of the fundamental concept of solar design.

Thank you.


Last edited by EcoBoger on Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Karl Ottenstein
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: Solar Analysis is not accounted in Energy Simulation (AC Reply with quote

I'm not sure ... but I think the feature you're "missing" is not part of the Ecodesigner included within 17, but rather part of the enhanced (and extra cost) version called EcoDesigner STAR which has not yet been released:

http://www.graphisoft.com/archicad/archicad_17/energy_evaluation/

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Solar Analysis is not accounted in Energy Simulation (AC Reply with quote

Karl Ottenstein wrote:
I'm not sure ... but I think the feature you're "missing" is not part of the Ecodesigner included within 17, but rather part of the enhanced (and extra cost) version called EcoDesigner STAR which has not yet been released:

http://www.graphisoft.com/archicad/archicad_17/energy_evaluation/



Thank you, Karl.

I am well aware of what EcoDesigner STAR is and was testing it since the Beta came out.

I am talking about an inconsistency in a standard functionality of AC17 INT without any add-ons.

I hope this issue gets fixed.
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Karl Ottenstein
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar Analysis is not accounted in Energy Simulation (AC Reply with quote

EcoBoger wrote:


I am well aware of what EcoDesigner STAR is and was testing it since the Beta came out.


Sorry, had no way on knowing...this was your first post and without a real name or real location. Wink

"Normal" Energy analysis (17) does not include model geometry shading. That is part of ED Star.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar Analysis is not accounted in Energy Simulation (AC Reply with quote

Karl Ottenstein wrote:

Sorry, had no way on knowing...this was your first post and without a real name or real location.


This is called "privacy". A sort of a novel idea nowadays. Smile

Karl Ottenstein wrote:

"Normal" Energy analysis (17) does not include model geometry shading. That is part of ED Star.


This is a really odd.

So, when we buy AC17 we get a widely-publisized Model-based Solar Irradiation Study, but we can not use it, as it has absolutely no bearing on, again, widely-publisized BEM by being omitted from the Solar Gain calculations?

This still looks like a bug to me.
Otherwise, omitting Model-based Solar Irradiation Study from the Solar Gain calculations makes the Model-based Solar Irradiation Study sort of useless and it should, probably, be moved to the Ecodesigner Star altogether and not be used for promoting unusable features in AC17.

Thinking about it, we can do similar Model-based Solar Irradiation Study in Sketch-Up for free in order to see if any of the project's openings are occluded by the model geometry. Sketch-Up does not calculate and display the amount of energy coming through a specific opening, but as we established, AC17 does not ether.

Sad. Sad I hoped to hear it was a bug, not a feature.

After all, it looks odd to be encouraged to use building occupancy profiles in basic AC17 where we can even calculate heat gain from human bodies and not be able to calculate Solar Gain properly. This does not sound logical.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Solar Analysis is not accounted in Energy Simulation (AC Reply with quote

EcoBoger wrote:
Karl Ottenstein wrote:

Sorry, had no way on knowing...this was your first post and without a real name or real location.


This is called "privacy". A sort of a novel idea nowadays. Smile

Karl Ottenstein wrote:

"Normal" Energy analysis (17) does not include model geometry shading. That is part of ED Star.


This is a really odd.

So, when we buy AC17 we get a widely-publisized Model-based Solar Irradiation Study, but we can not use it, as it has absolutely no bearing on, again, widely-publisized BEM by being omitted from the Solar Gain calculations?

This still looks like a bug to me.
Otherwise, omitting Model-based Solar Irradiation Study from the Solar Gain calculations makes the Model-based Solar Irradiation Study sort of useless and it should, probably, be moved to the Ecodesigner Star altogether and not be used for promoting unusable features in AC17.

Thinking about it, we can do similar Model-based Solar Irradiation Study in Sketch-Up for free in order to see if any of the project's openings are occluded by the model geometry. Sketch-Up does not calculate and display the amount of energy coming through a specific opening, but as we established, AC17 does not ether.

Sad. Sad I hoped to hear it was a bug, not a feature.

After all, it looks odd to be encouraged to use building occupancy profiles in basic AC17 where we can even calculate heat gain from human bodies and not be able to calculate Solar Gain properly. This does not sound logical.


I will look into this shortly, but If you believe this is a bug, Please log a support ticket to your local Graphisoft Support team and If you wouldn't mind, please share their feedback in this forum.

Cheers,

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EcoBoger
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar Analysis is not accounted in Energy Simulation (AC Reply with quote

GSAUS_Kevin wrote:


I will look into this shortly, but If you believe this is a bug, Please log a support ticket to your local Graphisoft Support team and If you wouldn't mind, please share their feedback in this forum.

Cheers,


Thank you, Kevin.

To make sure this is not just an abridged version of the calculation engine under AC17, I ran the same test under EcoDesigner STAR B2 (AC16) with the same erroneous results:

Model-based Solar Irradiation Study is not taken into account when a "Monthly Energy Balance" is calculated under "Energy Performance Evaluation".

Placing a solid wall in front of the opening properly changes Model-based Solar Irradiation Study to display a blank graph with 0 kWt of energy being gained through the window blocked by the wall, but it makes absolutely no difference on "Monthly Energy Balance" calculations. You still get the full load of solar gain year around.
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Karl Ottenstein
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar Analysis is not accounted in Energy Simulation (AC Reply with quote

EcoBoger wrote:

To make sure this is not just an abridged version of the calculation engine under AC17, I ran the same test under EcoDesigner STAR B2 (AC16) with the same erroneous results:


I assume you've been reading all of the reports/discussion related to the beta. As far as I could tell, even through B2, shading by model elements was not yet implemented in the beta. Any further discussion related to the beta or EDstar should happen in the beta forum and not in public until the EDstar release...

Cheers,
Karl

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar Analysis is not accounted in Energy Simulation (AC Reply with quote

Karl Ottenstein wrote:
Any further discussion related to the beta or EDstar should happen in the beta forum and not in public until the EDstar release...


Certainly, Karl.

The original intention of this thread is to establish whether Model-based Solar Irradiation Study being ignored in BEM Energy Simulation is a bug in a production version of AC17 INT (ver. 3002).

On a personal note, seeing that AC17 Model-based Solar Irradiation Study correctly calculates the energy each opening receives from the sun throughout the year precisely accounting for the model occlusion (a humongous task in my opinion) and, then, clearly shows the final result for the opening in kWt on that same graph page, it is sort of strange not to see than number of kWt that is already been calculated with such an effort and precision being simply omitted from the general Energy report (a relatively straightforward task of subtracting the already calculated value from the total Solar Gain for the year and distributing it through specific months or weeks, depending on the settings), seems strange.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar Analysis is not accounted in Energy Simulation (AC Reply with quote

Karl Ottenstein wrote:

As far as I could tell... shading by model elements was not yet implemented


Apparently, it should have been implemented and available in AC17 without EcoDesigner STAR.

Anybody can visit http://www.graphisoft.com/archicad/archicad_17/energy_evaluation/ and view the very first video titled "Building Energy Evaluation".
Starting at 5 minutes 20 secods into the video there is a whole section that promises us that Model Based Solar Irradiation is, indeed, supposed to be in the AC17.

At 6 minutes and 39 seconds into the video the narrator happily shares with us: "Isn't it great? From now on you can accurately model the green environment of your project and you CAN BE SURE THAT ITS INFLUENCE IS DIRECTLY TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT IN THE ENERGY SIMULATION."

Actually, no, we can not be sure, as it is not taken into account and it makes absolutely no difference on building energy simulation.

The following statement by the narrator at 6:55 into the video sounds even more confusing: "Actually, I am positive that our BEM model is the most accurate one on the planet."

Really? With no proper calculations for solar heat gain through the openings?

Thoughts?
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