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Steve Jepson
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:17 am    Post subject: Re: Rhino/Grasshopper-ARCHICAD BIDIRECTIONAL Connection Add- Reply with quote

I have been watching the Vectorworks Marionette Forum for a while and fooling with it myself some. One advantage I see is that Marionette is part of the same program. Add-ons/plugins/Connections... all have the problem of one part of the equation being out of sync with the others.
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laszlonagy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Rhino/Grasshopper-ARCHICAD BIDIRECTIONAL Connection Add- Reply with quote

Aaron Bourgoin wrote:
Grasshopper is welded to Rhino whose NURBS definition is compatible with most others. so at it's heart, Grasshopper has nowhere to go other than strapping itself to Rhino and it's NURBS definition.

Granted, Dynamo is tied to Revit and it's horrendous under-the-hood architecture, but it goes a long way to making Revit a usable tool.

Grasshopper is adept with geometry primarily whereas Dynamo can be scripted to generate, analyze and audit BIM as well.

As I recall, one of the first things Andreas wrote in Dynamo was a script to assist with his grading of his students' BIM projects.

More recently Dynamo is at work designing structural, mechanical and electrical systems inside buildings.

Unless I'm missing something, the ArchiCAD / RHINO / Grasshopper tool is currently limited to a geometry generator. This is great, but its just the geometry.

Lazlo, this "superior" product thing sounds like a red herring to me. One thing it has going for it is the fact that its is open source and is being built by users. Users built something powerful enough that it dominated the instructional workshops at AU this year.


I don't know if you are aware but Dynamo is no longer tied to Revit. It is called Dynamo Sandbox, which is a standalone version, with a possibility of being connected to other applications (just like Rhino-Grasshopper):

http://dynamobim.org/what-is-autodesk-dynamo-studio/

Also, Autodesk last year came out with Dynamo Studio, which their version of Dynamo plus some of their cloud services:
http://www.autodesk.com/store/dynamo-studio

For me this means that in this regard there is not much difference between the connection between Dynamo and Revit, and the connection between Grasshopper and ARCHICAD. Both Dynamo and Grasshopper work by accessing the API of the BIM application and doing all kinds of stuff through it.
In this regard GRAPHISOFT has saved enormous development time and effort that would have had to go into a Grasshopper-like functionality. Now they only need to constantly develop the connection between Rhino/Grasshopper and ARCHICAD, just like the Dynamo guys are developing new functionality for Revit.

In the next several years I expect that all three platforms (Dynamo+Revit, Rhino-Grasshopper+ARCHICAD, Marionette in Vectorworks) will continue adding functionality to their respective solutions so as to cover as much of the BIM application as possible. This will include getting and setting data about any element (construction or documentation element), Viewpoints and Views, Stories, attributes, Drawings, Layouts, Schedules, publishing, rendering, you name it.
Probably the main focus is on building elements, then all other areas of the program. I hope to be able to do all the automation things in ARCHICAD using Grasshopper in a few years time.
(All the above are my personal opinion and speculations.)

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leceta
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:51 am    Post subject: Re: Rhino/Grasshopper-ARCHICAD BIDIRECTIONAL Connection Add- Reply with quote

"in a few years time" that its sound to me a recognition to be one step beyond de competition.

Grasshopper is very powerful, and nowadays much capable than Dynamo with wider and better quality plugins than dynamo. Is, without doubt, the more mature and widely used graphical algorithmic tool in the industry of AEC and its academic side.

I think in Kangaroo, Galapagos, human UI, Honeybee and Ladybug are basic design tools for so much design studios and engineers, or researchers. Grasshopper and rhino also have been the last years a well beloved enviroment platform for a plethora of PHDs related with geometrical problems, mostly because the open nature of mcneel, his apis exposed in .net, c# and python, much accesibles for designers than c++, etc

Ironically, there are, nowadays a plethora of connection tools between revit and Gh (hummingbird, rhynamo,Lyrebird, nudibranch...) and they are capable of do pretty much the same things that GH-ACH connection tool is capable of.

Now, we have to take into account, that those connection tools were developed, in some cases, by people working in their spare time, or at least without receiving a payment for that job. Instead, Graphisoft, i assume, have people working in that connection tool project, so would spect something different from those kind of connections between GH and REVIT, i mean, something different, a more intimate connection between two systems, exactly what Dynamo has achieved with Revit.

We need to be able to create and manage attributes from GH, to have full control of GDL objects (arrays missing) from GH, to access to schedule information from GH, or still much better, be able to generate them directly in Grasshopper, what it would be a super powerful scheduling system, with all the capabilities of managing data via scripts, etc..

We also need to have access to ACH attributes (layers, stories, pensets, surfaces, etc..) via list, choosing and managing all together, but instead the current implementation consider only the possibility to choose them one by one, that is super anti-grasshopperistic. "grasshopperistic" is a important concept i have heard to Andrew Heumman, a super talented designer and grasshopper tool developer, author of Human and Human UI. Its not an easy concept to explain, you need to be a grasshopper user for this, but hey, in grasshopper, you shouldnt open a super long list of element to just pick one of them. I should have the possibilitie to choose all of them at once. For what? i dont know, but that is the way of tooling, of hacking, i need possibilities to then be creative with those possibilities.

I have been both Archicad and GH for years, for me the the connection between the two programs was one of the most exciting things in AEC software panorama of last years, the expectation, i admit, was hi, but now i´am living it like a bluff. The feeling is like, uff, they are not getting the point...


In my opinion, it is very important that graphisoft need to understand well the benefits of computational design is bringing to us designers.

I guess, its no so much in the designing and geometry generation part of the problem, but in the ability of creating and managing data computationally. And I say Data, i mean not only the schedule values of a project, "data creation and management" should be also aplicable to Attributes, Layers, Stories, project information, views, layouts, autotexts, etc, etc, etc... then, we will be talking about real computation design, with real tooling capabilities. "Tooling" is other super important concept to me to take into account.

Dont missunderstand my words, i would like to be constructive and no be merely critic. Archicad is the bim software i know the best, is my working tool for every day and i love it. But, we have to admint, there is still so much work to do with this GH connection thing... And we are late already...

please, neither consider my as an arrogant, i respect the work of graphisoft. Just hope that all this disordered ideas could serve for something to the Connection Tool developers.

saludos
leceta
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ejrolon
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Rhino/Grasshopper-ARCHICAD BIDIRECTIONAL Connection Add- Reply with quote

Saludos Leceta,
No worries on the comments they are always welcome.

FYI there is this place

https://rhinoconnectionbeta.graphisoft.com

Where you can bug GS to your hearts content about Rhino you will need to apply…

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leceta
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Rhino/Grasshopper-ARCHICAD BIDIRECTIONAL Connection Add- Reply with quote

Hi ejrolon, i knew that place. Sadly, i felt quite lonely there!
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ejrolon
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Rhino/Grasshopper-ARCHICAD BIDIRECTIONAL Connection Add- Reply with quote

Then Post as much as you want here.
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Aaron Bourgoin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Rhino/Grasshopper-ARCHICAD BIDIRECTIONAL Connection Add- Reply with quote

ejrolon wrote:
Saludos Leceta,
No worries on the comments they are always welcome.

FYI there is this place

https://rhinoconnectionbeta.graphisoft.com

Where you can bug GS to your hearts content about Rhino you will need to apply…


this topic needs it's own section. the beta forum doesn't seem to be kept updated. the latest release of the connection for Mac took several days to get posted.

This tool really does open up a portal to a host of possibilities and it should find a home for people to share their experiences and explorations.

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daviddelven
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Rhino/Grasshopper-ARCHICAD BIDIRECTIONAL Connection Add- Reply with quote

My thought is the same as Aaron.
We need an official and special FORUM in Graphisoft web (more modern and user friendly, less 90's than this one) for this Grasshopper-AC connection.
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laszlonagy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Rhino/Grasshopper-ARCHICAD BIDIRECTIONAL Connection Add- Reply with quote

daviddelven wrote:
My thought is the same as Aaron.
We need an official and special FORUM in Graphisoft web (more modern and user friendly, less 90's than this one) for this Grasshopper-AC connection.


There is now a separate forum for the Grasshopper-ARCHICAD Connection for a few weeks now. You are currently posting in it as this exact topic has been moved to it as all other GS-AC Connection-related topics:

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewforum.php?f=43

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daviddelven
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Rhino/Grasshopper-ARCHICAD BIDIRECTIONAL Connection Add- Reply with quote

Ok.
Thank you Laszlo.
I meant only about the old-fashioned interface.
Keep in touch,
David

laszlonagy wrote:
daviddelven wrote:
My thought is the same as Aaron.
We need an official and special FORUM in Graphisoft web (more modern and user friendly, less 90's than this one) for this Grasshopper-AC connection.


There is now a separate forum for the Grasshopper-ARCHICAD Connection for a few weeks now. You are currently posting in it as this exact topic has been moved to it as all other GS-AC Connection-related topics:

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewforum.php?f=43

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