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By bouhmidage
#324760
scraptrash wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:05 pm
Balint Kezer wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:20 am
is when you are writing about an issue or an idea, please also classify what kind of work (Architect, MEP Engineer, etc.) you do.
I’d like to share that when you expand the capacity of archicad, you at the same time enabling a new type of service that can be provided by the users, (I'm an architect)
E.g. You wouldn’t have expected ContraBIM would use archicad to provide QS services to contractor, instead of using CostX.
Why? Because graphisoft hasn’t realized the available quantity that can be extracted from Archicad models would be so dxmn good!
It beats Revit + CostX in every bit.

Same thing happens to MEP modeller.
Have you researched how bad and unusable are Revit MEP models? One obvious example is revit cannot handle large model. That means MEP models of a typical building could be split by trade AND floor.
But when MEP pipeworks are split by floors, the pipe works are disconnected. So if there’s still anyone saying that Revit can do design calculation, the first thing you can ask is have they split the MEP model? I keep seeing disconnected MEP routings in revit models.
My experience is I still haven’t heard any MEP engineer really make use of design calculation function in Revit.
That means people use Revit MEP for geometry only, which brings archicad to the same battle ground.

Some of our office projects actually work for contractor and we use archicad for spatial coordination. We need to model everything builder works, structure and MEP. We don’t need any calculations, just follow consultants design drawings. My experience is on architectural and structural elements, archicad is already very solid and flexible (but with so glitches some may say, but not deal breaker). But on MEP elements and MEP space zoning, archicad is still lacking. There are tons of excellent suggestions above.

But why do we do spatial coordination for contractor? Because the architects haven’t done their job well before they sent out the tender! And why architects haven’t done their coordination job well? Because architects do not have a good and easy to use tool for MEP modelling! AC should work on this context!

Some examples I encountered recently in how archicad MEP excels Revit MEP are:
- revit cannot report invert levels of pipe (I can’t believe that, unless you do in API), but AC can retrieve and label it with a bit of gdl. ( viewtopic.php?f=49&t=72530&p=324259&hil ... el#p324259 )
- revit does not divide pipes into preset lengths but AC can.
- Revit does not have trunking (people use Duct tool instead) but AC has. (Cable tray with cover.)
- Revit Equipment (eg AHU) does not appear in MEP system browser as connecting to 2 systems (supply and return system), but AC can show using schedule.
- revit pipeworks has no flow direction. Same as AC though.

I guess I’m only scratching the surface of how lacking is revit MEP doing MEP modelling since I’ve only been modelling MEP in AC for a month or so.

I really hope graphisoft won’t look down its mep modeller but should compete with revit on MEP geometry versatility and parameter richness. Also to develop connections to MEP calculation with third party software. (This one I’ve no knowledge)
This is a good description !

Can you make a little comparison between ArchiCAD and revit MEP systems as it looks like you know both of them please ?
* Automation and intelligence when creating systems
* Library objects
* available ducts and cabling systems
* scheduelling
* modelling speed
* editing MEP systems

Thanks !
By scraptrash
#324775
bouhmidage wrote: Can you make a little comparison between ArchiCAD and revit MEP systems as it looks like you know both of them please ?
This is a big topic, and I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to talk about MEP, since as I said, I have only started to learn to model MEP stuff not long ago.

The comparison between AC and Revit essentially boils down to AC and Revit software design decision. Both are capable softwares, but take totally opposite implementation approach. AC talks about computer resource utilization efficiency - minimum resources for maximum content. Revit stresses easy user control (at least it tries to appear to be to beginners) and instant feedback at the expense of computer resources.

That means, in contrary to many BIM people's belief, AC are suitable for huge projects while Revit is good for small houses.

bouhmidage wrote:* Library objects
This one i know a little bit. Revit users like to boost that they have huge community and developers to create families (e.g. library objects) while AC has not. That's true. However, more families doesn't mean they are usable. Most companies which use Revit have someone in office to create families for their project use. Most of the families downloaded must be modified. Reasons are e.g. some families are unnecessarily detail (LOD400?), parameters are not consistent or missing with office standard.

One good example: Most Revit architectural firms create their own door families because the bundled door family is not detail enough, or i would say, incorrect in geometry. How many times you hear AC firms create their own door object?

Revit families are usually more than 1Mb, which i would say it takes up way more computer resources than AC objects. Revit wants users to be able to create families via a user friendly graphical interface, at the expense of resulting family efficiency. Families vs GDL object to me is like .doc vs markdown format.

Another thing that haunts Revit is their way of defining new custom parameters that can be used across files. They call them "shared parameter". Revit identifies these parameters by GUID, while AC GDL object uses human readable variable name. Say 100 Revit people around the world create 100 nos. different HVAC equipment families, and they all add a new shared parameter "weight" into the families. However Revit identifies the parameter by GUID, not the name "weight", and these GUID will not be the same (that's what GUID is for). So these 100 equipment all have different parameters although they are all called "weight".

I think this GUID parameter thing makes Revit data very difficult to align across projects and companies. So when we hear people saying Revit excels AC in the "I" of "BIM", you know that's a joke.

Also family setting dialogue is a nightmare compared to AC. Settings of GDL objects usually are illustrated to show the meaning of each variable. In Revit, all variables (parameters) are listed out from top to bottom without any illustration. You can't hide parameters which are irrelevant to users. The interface is only designed for very simple families.


For other Revit MEP operations, I've not much knowledge. I do suggest you to install a trial version, start a new project with MEP profile, then test out the mep modelling. I tried that, and i felt their modelling is easier and smoother than AC. You can also find how many bundled MEP fittings they have.
By scraptrash
#324783
scraptrash wrote:I think this GUID parameter thing makes Revit data very difficult to align across projects and companies. So when we hear people saying Revit excels AC in the "I" of "BIM", you know that's a joke.
Though AC is already inherently way ahead than Revit, AC should still add more reserved parameters, as @Moonlight had suggested in another post:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71347
Moonlight wrote: ArchiCAD have a collection of reserved parameters of MEP, but unfortionalty for the electric field, the amount of reserved parameters is lacking compared to other aspects of MEP within ArchiCAD.
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