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Discussion of non-graphical data: Properties, Property Expressions, Classifications, Interactive Schedules

Moderators: ejrolon, Barry Kelly, Karl Ottenstein, LaszloNagy, Gordana Radonic, nbalogh, gkmethy, mnguyen

#327870
When I create a door or window schedule I ALWAYS show the elevation from the outside.
However this is not possible using the schedules in Archicad. Is this just me or do either countries do this differently. For me 'front' or 'back' views are meaningless especially when we now place these elements by defining the EXTERNAL direction. Its frustrating when Internal/external is not recognised by the schedule. At the same time the 2D symbol is pretty dumb.
Seems to me its about time we should be able to produce decent door/window schedules.
Comments anyone?
Last edited by David Shorter on Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
#327880
Your post is now "on topic" as it has its own thread / subject line. :-) [Feel free to edit your post to change the subject if I got it wrong. The first post in any thread is the subject for the entire thread... and only the original poster, or a moderator, can edit it to change the subject.]

Please everyone: don't tack on new questions/topics to old threads (particularly ones with super vague subject lines). Threads per focused topic (unless the original subject was a broad general discussion of course) with meaningful subject lines makes it easier for people in the future to find your content :-)

Cheers,
Karl
#327881
I think that everything related to Windows and Doors is very outdared and the whole system needs to be reviewed and redesigned. Windows are running on the same algorithms that were created on AC 6.0
Each version, of cause, added some modifications (UI changed on version 18 I guess), but the core is the same.

If I would do my windows/doors library - I started from scratch, redesigning and rethinking each part of it - including schedules. There were gossips from Schuco, that Graphisoft plans to redesign doors and windows - well, let see when that happens.
#327887
A recent post on LinkedIn (which showed the Elevation of a window from the INSIDE) sent me back to relook at Archicad's door and window schedules for the first time in a long time.
I ended up with the attached image which shows, at least from my point of view, that it's impossible to create a door schedule using the standard library and schedule options.
(245.01 KiB) Downloaded 36 times

There are of course issues of localisation hence the post.
#327889
David Shorter wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:04 am ...
I ended up with the attached image which shows, at least from my point of view, that it's impossible to create a door schedule using the standard library and schedule options.

whyTheScheduleDoesntWork.pdf
...

Great illustration, David. Agree, that defining the exterior side when placing should make the code and schedules show the right thing, or at least something consistent. This is similar to an issue with mirrored windows/doors years ago (might still exist)... where the GDL code did not check the "mirrored" status in all places and so "left" and "right" (for casing etc) were inconsistent - sometimes being left as seen from the 'front' and sometimes left as seen from the 'back'...and sometimes 'left' was 'right' etc. Because of localized libraries, your illustration might work in some countries and not others.
#328403
Localisation then is the issue (and this discussion has been had before) The schedules are impossible in Australia and probably in the UK (although I haven't worked there for many years)
Its about time GRAPHISOFT got it right
Its the inconsistency which is so frustrating, when GS first introduced the concept of Inside/Outside when placing doors and windows I thought/hoped that the issue was coming to some sort of resolution (I mean even GDL understand the concept) but no..... :(
#328407
As far as I know, the 'outside' is the reveal side of the door window and the 'inside' is the non-reveal side.
The reveal side is the first click on the side of the wall where you want to place the window.
You then choose the swing of the door (same for window) by clicking on the side of the wall you want it to be.

So inside/outside has noting to do with the swing (opening) direction of the door window.
That is the 'to zone' / 'from zone' I believe.

If I get a chance later I will try to test it and create a diagram.

Barry.
#328416
Hi Barry
As far as I know a reveal is really just a recess to a door or window frame it can be either an inside or outside reveal.
When placing a door or window the user Identifies the external direction of the door or window unit first, the the direction of the door swing. The door can swing any of 4 directions but it will only have one outside (external) face.
This has nothing to do with the "reveal"
We can take this off line if you prefer. :)
#328420
Yes, there is a reveal on both sides of a frame, but I am referring to the reveal depth side - the first click on the side of a wall when you place a door/window.
What you called the 'external direction'.

Here I have placed 4 doors - all with the reveal on the outside of the wall.
The door then swing in each of the 4 possible directions.

door_outside_1.jpg
door_outside_1.jpg (81.29 KiB) Viewed 115 times

The schedule shows the 'View from Reveal Side' is the view from the outside of the wall - the side the door reveal is on.

The 'View for Opening Side' is the view from the side the door opens into.

The '3D Front View' is the view from the X/Y plane of the object looking towards z = positive.
This should be the same as the opening side if the door is scripted to convention (the inside being z = positive).

door_outside_2.jpg
door_outside_2.jpg (109.71 KiB) Viewed 115 times

And here is the same but with the reveal on the inside of the wall but with doors swinging the same way as before.

door_outside_3.jpg
door_outside_3.jpg (52.79 KiB) Viewed 115 times

The 'View from Reveal Side' is different as it is now looking at the other side of the frame - the reveal depth side which is now on the other side of the wall.
The 'View from Opening Side' and '3D Front View' remain the same as they were before.

door_outside_4.jpg
door_outside_4.jpg (86.43 KiB) Viewed 115 times

So the 'View from Reveal Side' is always taken from the side of the wall you first click on.
If you always click on the outside of the wall, you will get an outside view with 'reveal side'.

Barry.
#328491
Barry you are correct, The reveal side is always the 'outside'
from ARCHICAD Help "3.The sun icon and thick line represent the “outside” (reveal side) of the Wall"
The 'side opposite the reveal side' is always the "inside"
Why GS dont simply call it inside and outside I have no idea, after all the concept of inside and outside is fundamental when trying to secure a door or window or to make sure its weatherproof. Try placing a double hung window by clicking on the inside of the wall and you'll find the top sash is wrong and will let the rain in.
Also just to confuse things its possible to paint the inside and outside of a door leaf differently. I would suggest if GS are going to use the terminology shown below (inside/outside) then this should be used throughout.


leafcolours.jpg
leafcolours.jpg (65.2 KiB) Viewed 64 times

The 2D symbol is incorrect as it doesn't match the the opening lines in elevation 50% of the time

swingLines.jpg
swingLines.jpg (44.76 KiB) Viewed 64 times